Glacier Girl: The Back Story
How it got trapped in the ice, and how it got out.
- By airspacemag.com
- Air & Space magazine, July 2007
Trapped inside an ice cave in 1992, the P-38 looked helpless despite its fearsome weapons.
Lou Sapienza
(Page 6 of 7)
"I thought about that for a year. Sort of mental preparation," Richard Taylor says. "I’d be in an office building in downtown Atlanta. I’d go to put my nose up to the glass and I’d look down and you’re on the 25th floor and you see a manhole cover from a sewer. Well, that’s the dimension: you think, I’m going down a tube that wide, 25 stories deep. I had to be scared to death. Ain’t no question. But when the moment comes, for whatever reason it’s not there. You get in there. You know you’ve got something to do. You know you’ve got to go."
The atmosphere inside Pat Epps’ aircraft maintenance hangar in Atlanta is giddy this balmy autumn night. There’s an impromptu party, and the guest of honor is Harry Smith’s P-38. Bathed in greenish light, the components of the still-disassembled aircraft lie in rough approximation of where they should be—though the wings are upside down and the large center section is being placed aboard a ship in Denmark. The airplane serves as the backdrop for a round of speech-making, and each speaker assumes a casually heroic pose—gesticulating with one arm, resting the other elbow on the P-38’s horizontal stabilizer. The chunk of old metal rocks precariously aboard its sawhorse perch.
Epps and company have been assured by experts that the aircraft is restorable, and to a novice’s eyes, it does look good. The canopy was crushed by the ice, and in places the aircraft’s skin shows evidence of having borne tremendous weight. But as Roy Shoffner, who will be funding the restoration, points out, "It’s got all the parts. That’s what makes it so nice. If you want to restore Grandfather’s old Model T that’s in the barn, it’s hard to do. But this one was only two months old when it was put on the ice and all the pieces were there."
Pat Epps interrupts: "Roy, I put you on the spot because I told everybody it’s going to be flying at the Oshkosh two years from now."
But Shoffner quickly responds, "Oh that’s easy. Yeah, we’ll do that."
The future of the Greenland Expedition Society seems less certain. The society doesn’t yet have funding for another expedition, and Epps is anxious to relinquish his position as society president. "I’ve been gone too long, neglecting my business too much," he says. "I need to turn to that."
At this point the society and its backers have spent some $2 million, and the restoration of the P-38 should cost another $500,000, so perhaps its wishful thinking when Epps estimated what the airplane will bring. " I think with the story and everything, it must be a $3 million plane," he says. Bruce Goessling, an aircraft dealer in Chino, California, who’s restored two P-38s, places the value of a flying P-38 at $750,000 to $1 million. But he acknowledges that the society might be able to make much more if they reach the right group of investors.
In an effort to raise the airplane’s profile, Epps speculates that the society will fly the airplane around a little before auctioning it, including making its promised appearance at Oshkosh in 1994. Portions of the aircraft, as much as could be fit aboard the expedition’s DC-3, already drew large crowds of admirers when they appeared at Oshkosh last summer.
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Comments (18)
Hi, I have read the Glazier Girl article in this site as well as the 'Lost Squadron' book. It appears that Carl Rudder was the 'Entertainment' while all the crews were waiting to be rescued. I love in the UK and was wondering if you have anything on the ancestry for Carl Rudder. I would appreciate anything you may have. I know the B17's were stationed around a 1 1/2 hours drive from my home in East Anglia.
Kind regards
L Rudder
Posted by Les Rudder on September 24,2008 | 04:06 PM
Has Glacier Girl been fitted with the dive brakes that were part of the later series of P-38's ?
How do you ensure that you don't encounter the engine detonation problems that seemed to have plagued the earler P-38's with in tubro intecoolers in the leading edge of the wings ?? What octane fuel do you have to use and how expensive is it per gallon ?
Posted by Frank Sobol on November 9,2008 | 12:59 PM
Just a thought. With the ice caps currently melting at an unprecendented rate how long will it be before a team is up there to retrieve the remaining birds?
Posted by Tom Patterson on August 20,2009 | 05:35 PM
The rate of melt off per year as stated by environmentalists say there is a four to ten feet per year melting up in the area the other planes are located. The rest of missing aircraft should be on top of the ice now. From what I have been told and read about the area from other people who are not involved with trying to convince there is global warming the planes are still getting deeper every year by a foot or so with the annual precipitation. You have a great question. I wonder who is telling the truth. I wish I could afford to go up and measure it my self because when I first read the story of people thinking about going and getting the airplanes fifteen years ago no one had a clue how deep they were. What a terrific story that expedition made over the years. It seems like someone would go and grab the rest of the planes since they are worth so much now-a-days. They know how to do it now. Somewhere I read the are over 320 feet deep. I wonder what the condition of the other P-38s were. Oh well, we may never know.
Posted by Badmoon on September 24,2009 | 04:05 AM
First of all I want to excuse my english, it's not as good as I wish - but I hope you understand it.
I'm a Dane who is interested in crytolog. In my study of some episodes from the 2nd world war, I've read that some American airplanes were 'misinformed' by the Germans. They have broken the American codes, and send a message via Hagelin(?) to the airplanes to go north. At last the planes had no more fuel, and had to land on the icecap in Greenland. Is Glacier Girl one of those planes? - or did the crew land only because of the weather?
Greetings,
Jesper Frandsen
Posted by Jesper Frandsen on October 1,2009 | 06:24 AM
Al Gore states in his movie “Inconvenient Truth” claims that the Greenland Ice caps are rapidly melting. If so, why the 268 feet of Ice on top of the airplanes? What is it now, 15 years later? Seems like an extortionately interesting story that these time capsules were placed on top of the Ice cap in 42 and are buried under an enormous ice cap. Is Gore correct? EDITORS' REPLY: I have not seen the movie and do not know what time frame Gore is speaking of in terms of the rapid melting, and whether it is the same time frame that applies to Glacier Girl's becoming buried. Another question is whether GG's burial was the result of multiple forces. Interesting questions.
Posted by David Fletcher on December 9,2009 | 09:42 PM
Why so much ice on top of the airplanes? Because heavy and metal objects placed on ice sink into it. The pressure of an object causes a thin layer to melt, and the object then sinks.
We used to demonstrate this to Scouts with the ice blocks in the ice house. We'd put a penny on top of an ice block and monitor its progress. A coin is very light. It would take a few days to migrate far.
Try it yourself. Get a sizable block of ice in your freezer, and put a wrench on top. Tell us what happens.
Airplanes tend to be rather heavy, heavier than coins, certainly. Perhaps some physicist could give us the equations necessary to plot the speed with which an object sinks in ice, and tell us whether the sinking is temperature sensitive.
Posted by Ed Darrell on February 20,2010 | 04:57 AM
Oh, and don't forget the explanation in the Smithsonian's original story:
The ice isn't static, either.
Posted by Ed Darrell on February 20,2010 | 05:04 AM
all of the birds wrecked on the ice caps while making an emergancy landing. the wreck was caused by extremly high winds and an ice storm which confused the pilots and caused the pilots to have to wreck in order to stop from going off course(ihave the documentary to prove this if you think im wrong)threason they are under ice is because the force of the wreck made craters in the ice which the planes filled plus the ice storm(causing layer number one over time) plus many other ice storms plus the weight of the planes over time caused the 264 feet of ice. the cannot get the other seven planes because they had been too badly damaged due to the weight of the ice and the severity of their wrecks. glacier girl however landed but slid and her engine blew which didnt cause much cosmetic damage to her which allowed the lost squadron musaem to be able to fix the bird
Posted by steven coriell on June 18,2010 | 02:31 PM
Would LOVE to see this! Where is it located now in Texas? Is it going to be back in Middlesboro,Ky anytime soon?
Posted by Vicki on June 30,2010 | 08:21 AM
My husband and I made several trip to Middlesboro, Ky. to see the glacier girl being rebuilt and were there for her maided flight. Is she on display anywhere in Texas that a person can come and see her?
Posted by connie helmlinger on August 25,2010 | 03:39 PM
Ed's comment about a penny melting into the ice is unfortunately so incomplete and simplistic, as to be very misleading.
Never mind that the data show that there is an annual build up of snow/ice in Greenland, and that the guys who actually bored down to the level of the aircraft observed that there were "lenses" of ice showing annual precipitation, melting, refreezing, etc.
The reason the penny melts through the ice is due to physics and thermodynamics. First of all, the penny has a much greater density than either ice or water. Drop a penny in a glass of water. It doesn't float, it sinks.
Secondly the absorbtivity of the penny is muych greater than the ice. If there is any sunlight at all, the penny is going to end up warmer than the ice, and melt the ice, and sink into the melt puddle.
That is, until the ice freezes over the penny overnight, and after a fairly short period is deep enough (not very deep actually) that the sunlight won't penetrate to the penny to warm it up.
Now, add to this equation the fact that aircraft are mostly aluminum and (inside) air. They are not very dense. And if, for example, there are pockets of air trapped in the airframe and wings - and empty fuel bladders - then the density of the aircraft, in total, could be little more, or perhaps even less than that of the ice.
Sorry for the AGW folks, but the truth is, the ice cap has been growing on Greenland all these decades, eventually burying the aircraft. An inconvenient fact.
Posted by J. Waltz on August 29,2010 | 06:24 PM
Gentleman,
I was the original ground probing radar geologist from Xadar in July of 83. I'm really tired as a scientist of people that thinks global warming is a left wing political conspiracy.
First off, the Greenland glacier at the exploration site is a Temperate Glaciers:
In a temperate glacier the temperature is at the pressure melting point throughout the entire ice body except for the upper few meters of ice. This layer is subjected to annual temperature fluctuations. Which means there are layers of water throughout and was the main reason our higher frequency radar didn't penetrate deep enough (the water layers are conductive and kills the signal)
Second,it's a Warm-based Glaciers:
Warm based glaciers are at the pressure melting point at their bed. Heat from the Earth and from basal friction provides energy to melt ice at the bed, thus facilitating slip and erosion. That means the glacier flows to the ocean and takes everything with it...including airplanes.
So here's the deal: from 1942 to around 1970 the amount of snow deposit and summer melt was relatively constant. That means the planes would have been buried under enough snow to facilitate movement downward due to the temporal nature of the glacier. In other words, the pressure from the snow overburden and the weight of the planes caused then to sink (like adding water to sand and shaking it...stuff sinks..even pennies) AND remember they were 2 miles from their perceived original location. That's because the glacier flows, and it flows most rapidly the closer to the ocean you get. We were only 100 mile from water and we were have problems with crevasses open up on us. I think they lost a vehicle in one before I got there.
My 15 minutes of fame is in Popular Mechanics Mar 1984 page 80. I'm the one resting on the roof of the bombie waiting for the next grid run.
Posted by Forrest Shafer on November 19,2010 | 03:45 PM
To Les Rudder in England- Carl Rudder is my Dad and yes he could be very entertaining. Its been a couple of years since posted your comment, but I hope you see this. My email is: maryrosej5@gmail.com
Posted by Mary Rose (Rudder) Joyner on May 26,2011 | 03:50 PM
I thought you might want to know that the J Bradley McManus who crash landed the Glacier Girl P38 died this year. I take care of the West Catholic Alumni website from which he graduated in 1937. His obituary can be found at
http://westcatholicalumni.org/Obits/JBradleyMcManus37.pdf
West Catholic is a parochial high school in West Philadelphia that reaches out to the poor for a free education.
Posted by Richard McCann on August 19,2011 | 03:23 PM
HI,
A while ago I went by the Airport in Griffin, GA. There was what looked like a DC-3 with a bulbous (guppy?) body and, I thought, the name "Greenland Expedition Society" painted on the side. Was I imagining this or did the Society actually have such a plane. If it did, was it a twin-engine DC-3 or one of the larger four-engine "super-guppy" models? Finally, was is the current status of this aircraft?
Thank you,
Bill Hosford
Lisbon, IA
Posted by William Hosford on February 12,2012 | 08:40 PM
If i remember correctly, the society at one time had two DC-3's. one of them was red. we watched it leave Dekalb-Peachtree Airport flown by Pat Epps headed for Greenland. I believe it was the start of the 11th mission to locate the planes. The red DC3 was a twin engine. I have no idea what has become of that plane, but you could probably contact Epps Aviation & find out. Good luck
Posted by kent savage on May 12,2012 | 12:09 PM
What were the names of all the Lost Squadron pilots beside Brad McManus, and what happened to them after Greenland? Did they return to combat status and did they survive the war? The other pilot names I've been able to find through Googl are R.B. Wilson, Robert H. Wilson, Lt. Harry Smith. I don't know if Carl Rudder was a P-38 pilot or one of the B-17 crewmen.
Posted by James Brooks on September 16,2012 | 07:36 PM