The Curse of the Cargomaster
Readied to transport the first U.S. ICBMs, the Douglas C-133 had a peculiar habit. It kept crashing.
- By John Sotham
- Air & Space magazine, September 2010
In the 86-foot-long cargo bay, former crewmen recall the hardware a C-133 could lift.
Mark Duehmig
They’d fly it again, if they had the chance. Among the group gathered at Delaware’s Dover Air Force Base, there’s a man for every crew station at the ready. They flew, maintained, navigated, and sometimes cursed one of the least understood aircraft in the history of the U.S. Air Force, the Douglas C-133 Cargomaster. In a conference room at Dover’s Air Mobility Command Museum, papers are shuffled—Where was that article from the base news? Smudgy documents, their margins trailing off the page from copy-of-a-copy-of-a-copy Xeroxing, are offered. A small stack of VHS tapes forms a centerpiece. The men, some slowed by age and ailment, chatter and argue. A clamor of “There I was” stories fills the room, accompanied by hand flying. Then, with quiet authority, Hank Baker, a retired C-133 flight engineer, holds his hand up, as if to take an oath.
“Let me tell the story, please,” Baker says, silencing the room. The men defer. Baker describes his dogged negotiations to bring the C-133B from display at the former Strategic Air Command museum in Offutt, Nebraska, to the ramp outside, an effort that has made him a C-133 honcho at Dover. After his introduction, jackets are gathered; pants hitched up. We stroll outside in the chill rain to walk around the last Cargomaster to leave the production line. I can see why the crewmen are proud of it: the majestic tail, impressive expanse of wing, elegantly streamlined engines, and thin, rapier props. This is a serious lifter of missiles, trucks, tanks—anything, really. But when we come to the nose, the face is a surprise: a clown visage with a ridiculous radome.
“In the early days of moving large cargo, we had to learn a lot of it as we did it,” says Baker. “And, we didn’t know a lot about what things weighed…especially when they saw that you could move other things besides a missile.”
The C-133 was developed by the Douglas Aircraft Company at a time when the Air Force was in a hurry to deploy intercontinental ballistic missiles to bases around the country. The big turboprop, which first flew in 1956, had a cargo bay big enough to carry an Atlas or Titan ICBM, but to make loading them easier, Douglas modified the original design with clamshell doors to increase the size of the opening in the aft fuselage.
Dover’s Cargomaster is parked next to its older, smaller cousin, the Douglas C-124 Globemaster. Many C-133 aircrew transitioned from the lumbering and unpressurized C-124, called Old Shaky by its crews and dragged aloft by four brutish Pratt & Whitney R-4360 engines—each a deafening whirl of connecting rods, pushrods, and 28 pistons the size of coffee cans.
“I had thousands of hours in the C-124—flying through weather at 10,000 feet,” says Harry Heist, a retired navigator and Dover volunteer. “When I transitioned to the C-133—pressurized, flying above the clouds—I felt like I had been born again.”
Baker and Sandy Sandstrom, a former flight engineer, fire up a diesel-engine external hydraulic power unit, and Sandstrom boards the crew ladder and disappears into the fuselage. Soon there’s a loud pop, and the rear clamshell doors slowly begin to part. They reach the end of their travel and stop with a shudder. We climb the aft ramp into the bay, and Baker recalls that often during fuel stops, a random piece of equipment—a truck, maybe an artillery piece—would appear at the back of the aircraft. Could it fly? “Our motto was, ‘Anything that’ll fit in the hole,’” says Baker.
After a tour of the cargo hold and cockpit, we climb down the forward boarding ladder. Baker squats next to where the Cargomaster’s nosewheel strut pokes out of the fuselage. In a loaded airplane, the more weight above the strut, the less of the smooth, machined inner cylinder would be visible, he says. “We’d look at the nose strut—the usual deflection was a pack of cigarettes. If it was less, the load was too far forward. If it was more, it was too far to the rear.”
Sandstrom shuts down the ground unit, and the pitch of the big diesel engine spirals down. The shouting stops, and as the men resume talking, the discussion turns to what the crews who flew and maintained the big airlifter inevitably end up talking about.
The crashes.
It was another cool Dover morning, April 13, 1958, when a four-man crew from the 39th Air Transportation Squadron rode the flightline van to C-133A tail number 40146. At 8:28 a.m., 40146 lifted off the runway behind what is today the museum hangar. The crew transmitted routine messages at 8:34 and 8:40. Three minutes later and 26 miles south of the base, the airplane fell inverted from the sky into Ellendale State Forest.
The Air Force grounded the C-133 fleet. It had been only 24 months since the first flight at the Douglas facility in Long Beach, California. Acquired under a new system of concurrent development and production, an Air Force attempt to limit procurement costs and delays, the C-133 program had no prototype phase; the aircraft had gone from drawing board to production line. Although the first eight airframes underwent flight tests at Edwards Air Force Base in California, most of the testing coincided with aircraft deliveries to operational units. Modifications were made throughout the Cargomaster’s service life.
A team of accident investigators assembled at Dover. Most of their theories centered on a nastiness the Cargomaster had exhibited during its earliest tests: The aircraft gave its pilots virtually no warning when it stalled. The buffet that accompanies a stall, which in most aircraft serves as advance notice, arrived in the Cargomaster almost simultaneously with the stall itself. Tests also showed that abnormal airflow over the horizontal stabilizers could render the elevators ineffective. In early 1957, a fix was incorporated into the eighth aircraft built and retrofitted on the previous seven: a horizontal “beaver tail” that extended behind the vertical stabilizer helped to keep the airflow over the control surfaces smooth and to counter the airplane’s tendency in a descent to tuck under. But 40146 already had those modifications. Why did it crash? Although the investigators couldn’t report a definitive cause, they identified 17 deficiencies in the C-133’s control system that could have been contributing factors, and a team of Douglas engineers traveled to Dover to correct them. A month later, the airplane resumed operation, and all was well—for three years.
The next two Cargomasters to go down simply disappeared during overwater passages. The first, an aircraft headed for Midway Island, and then home to California’s Travis Air Force Base, left Tachikawa Air Base in Japan one minute before midnight on June 9, 1961. Twelve minutes after a normal takeoff, followed by a routine radio call, it was gone. Less than a year later, on May 27, 1962, number 71611 departed Dover, then dropped from the radar shortly after the pilot reported passing through 13,000 feet. In the two accidents, 14 crew members died.
The C-133 began to get a reputation, and crews listened intently for any signal of a stall, especially during climbout when the aircraft, full of fuel, was heaviest. Sandstrom and other Cargomaster crewmen found that the airplane had a subtle stall warning device: the windshield wipers. “When we’d enter a stall, the windshield wiper would vibrate,” Sandstrom says. “If you saw that, you better be putting the nose down.”
But what if, on the next mission, you missed the Cargomaster’s whisperings? What would it feel like to be pinned against the straps, watching helplessly as the ocean filled the windscreen?
After a departure from Chateauroux Air Base, France, pilot John Burnett was settling in for a long flight. “I was making my radio calls and noticed the airplane shudder a little bit,” he says. “The pilot in the left seat was moving the controls and nothing was happening. I yelled out that I was going for 15 degrees of flaps—we regained control of the airplane, dumped fuel, and returned to Chateauroux.”
Instead of a stall, Burnett believes the elevators were partially blanked out—much as the earliest Edwards tests had demonstrated was possible. In fact, both cockpit airspeed indicators showed that the aircraft was operating well above stall speeds. “If you put the tail down into the turbulent flow from the wing, you lose elevator control,” says Burnett, who was a C-133 flight instructor and examiner. What would happen to a less experienced pilot—perhaps with only seconds to react?
On April 10, 1963, the remains of another C-133 could be seen scattered across a field outside Travis. The mission had been a training sortie for two young lieutenant pilots. An experienced examiner pilot was in the right seat. One of the crew made a radio call acknowledging a runway change, the aircraft entered a steep turn, and then they were gone. Five months later, another C-133 departing from Dover disappeared over the Atlantic.
“It was the talk of the airlift career field,” says retired lieutenant colonel Herbert Nakagawa, who was a navigator trainee in 1965 and accumulated 4,500 hours in the C-133. “I got that assignment [to the C-133] in nav school. One of my instructors came up to me and said ‘It’s been nice knowing you.’ And, he was serious.”
Delivering outsized cargo all over the world, Cargomaster crews were flying thousands of uneventful hours. Still, the drumbeat of accidents continued. “There was sort of a mystique around the aircraft,” says Nakagawa. “It had a reputation as mysterious, since a lot of them just disappeared.”
If you were headed home on leave and waiting in a passenger terminal to fly space-available, would you take the seat on the Cargomaster running up outside, or wait for whatever came along next? “There were a lot of people who were really scared to fly in it,” says Nakagawa. “And there were people who [did] even though they were apprehensive.” But Cargomaster crews, says Nakagawa, “wanted to make it work. They were dedicated to it.”
“I was never scared of it,” says Burnett, who instructed many of the crews at Dover. “It seemed to me that the more we could learn about it, the better we’d be. But I respected it.”
In 1963, a full-scale investigation of the Cargomaster, the first of many, was convened at the Warner Robins Air Materiel Area in Georgia to help Military Air Transport Services study the five C-133 crashes. “They convened everybody,” says Cal Taylor, a former Cargomaster navigator and perhaps the airplane’s most knowledgeable historian. “The airplane builder, MATS… [they got] everybody involved to figure out what was going on.”
“We had some of the best minds in aeronautics working on the problems of the C-133,” says Sandstrom. “I took an airplane down to Warner Robins and while it was down there, they tore it completely apart. They put it all back together, and I was sent down there to preflight it. It flew just like it did when we flew it down there. They didn’t figure out anything.”
Roy Isaacs was a young structures engineer at Douglas when the first C-133 rolled off the line in 1956. He remembers one Air Force requirement stating that the airplane, when fully loaded, would be able to clear a 50-foot obstacle at the end of a 10,000-foot runway. “We had to redesign all the sections of the airplane three times,” Isaacs recalls, “and we had to lighten [the airframe] and get the weight down to accommodate the engines. Consequently, it made the airplane have a bunch of problems. That engine is the downfall of the C-133.”
That engine was the Pratt & Whitney T34, the only turboprop available at the time that could get an airplane as heavy as a fully loaded Cargomaster off the ground. During cruise, the engines ran at a constant speed. To vary the thrust, a governor inside the propeller’s nose case (located aft of the propeller blades) changed the blade pitch. When the pilot pushed the throttles forward to increase power, the governor angled the propeller blades to take a bigger bite of air. The mechanism in the nose case was in turn governed by a complex, electrically controlled system that synchronized blade pitch among the four engines.
“You could have a prop malfunction, and a number of things could cause it,” says Ken Kozlowski, a former C-133 crew chief who served as chief mechanic and flight engineer on a privately owned Cargomaster that flew until 2008. Through monastic devotion to understanding every system on the C-133 and by developing his own maintenance procedures, Kozlowski kept the civilian Cargomaster flying as a bush airplane—and slamming onto remote Alaska gravel runways—nearly 40 years after the Air Force let it go.
Minute changes in engine performance, coupled with changes in altitude, airflow, or synchronization, kept the nose case mechanism constantly working to maintain optimum blade angle. At higher altitudes, the props had to increase pitch to move the same amount of air; at lower altitudes, the pitch needed to be reduced. Thomas Kaye, who was an Air Force hydraulic mechanic stationed on Midway, remembers seeing Cargomasters arriving from Japan that had been four-engine transports on takeoff but had only three engines operating by the time they landed. Once, a C-133 showed up with only two engines. It had been able to stay aloft only because the flight engineer injected a water-alcohol mixture (a standard takeoff booster) when the airplane was threatening to head toward the waves.
“The nose case [governor] would go,” says Kaye. “The pitch was constantly changing to keep the [propellers] phased, and it was constantly loading and unloading the gearing in the nose. What they did later on was put a little time-delay relay and slowed the pitch changes down, which relieved the excessive load on the nose cases.”
Propeller-system failures, along with the still-worrisome stall characteristics, were key suspects in two more crashes. After the second accident, the Air Force again grounded all the Cargomasters. Between April and August 1965, additional C-133 flight testing was conducted at Edwards. With Douglas engineer Roy Isaacs aboard many of the flights, the dangerous stall characteristics were confirmed, and investigators focused on how to prevent the Cargomaster’s now-infamous right-wing rolloff. Cameras trained on tufts installed on the wings clearly showed the right wing stalling before the left—in fact, the left wing usually didn’t stall at all.
The way to keep the Cargomaster from rolling onto its right wing during a stall turned out to be depressingly simple. “What we ultimately came up with was a triangular piece of sheet metal that we put on the leading edge of the left wing between number-one and number-two engines,” says Isaacs. Called a stall strip, the modification disrupted airflow over the left wing and caused it to stall when the right wing did. The modification was made at Dover and Travis to all aircraft in the fleet. Test pilot “Skip” Johnson test flew every airframe to ensure the strips—which were first temporarily attached to the left wing—were in the correct position so that when the aircraft was stalled during a test, the left and right wings stalled simultaneously. As if to demonstrate that the Cargomaster would never reveal all its secrets, one Dover C-133 snapped into a violent left roll during a test flight after its stall strip was attached. Of the 42 C-133s left in the fleet, it became the only one to sport a stall strip on its right wing.
Senior MATS officers then took the sum total of knowledge about the Cargomaster’s tendencies on the road. “They had a mandatory briefing for all aircrews in the base theater at Travis and at Dover,” Cal Taylor says. By the late 1960s, the stall strip and better aircrew training improved the airplane’s survivability. But because the propeller control system was still prone to fail, and airframes began to fatigue—a problem that would persist until the aircraft was retired in 1971—two more Cargomasters crashed.
Herbert Nakagawa remembers what his aircraft was carrying on April 30, 1967, and it hardly seemed worth his life. “The cargo was basically garbage—old drop tanks, miscellaneous old junk,” he says. “We spent the night on Okinawa and the next day we were going to Midway.”
The weather was fine—scattered clouds. After takeoff and climb to 12,450 feet, the number four propeller began to malfunction. The pilots shut the engine down, feathered the prop, and turned back toward Okinawa’s Kadena Air Base. One of the flight engineers attempted a last-ditch fix. “Master Sergeant Ray Wetzel went behind the engineer’s panel to jiggle with the propeller control system,” says Nakagawa. All four propellers received electrical power through a single circuit that also controlled the pitch regulator. The circuit sparked and failed, and the props were locked at an angle too high for lower altitudes. Wetzel ran to strap in to one of the airline-style seats in back—what some consider the most survivable area in a crash. “At 2,500 feet, all three [remaining] engines flamed out,” Nakagawa says. “Fortunately, we still had airspeed, and we still had control of the airplane. When we hit, I was amazed I had survived. The airplane broke in half right in front of the wings. We had vests on, and we gathered together by the floating nose wheels. The copilot had bought all these cheap Japanese golf balls and while we were bobbing there, all these golf balls came floating up around us.”
Once all nine crewmen had been rescued, they formed an exclusive club: the only airmen to survive a Cargomaster crash.
After Nakagawa’s crash, one more Cargomaster fell. On February 6, 1970, a C-133B left Travis to deliver a Vietnam-scarred CH-47 Chinook to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. After cruising at 21,000 feet and with clearance granted for a climb to 23,000, Cargomaster 90530 broke up in flight. The majority of the debris fell on a field outside Palisade, Nebraska.
Roy Isaacs flew to Nebraska to help with the investigation. One day, standing on the stage of the town’s National Guard armory and looking at the wreckage that had been assembled there, he noticed something. “You could see all the jagged pieces, but here was a straight line by the side cargo door,” he says. Isaacs used a jeweler’s loupe to examine the edge of a long split about a foot above the side cargo door. Clearly, the metal had fatigued and failed. The crack had blown out a section of fuselage, which entered the arc of the number-two propeller.
C-133 maintainers found fatigue a continuing challenge, especially because air coming off the near-supersonic tips of the propellers produced vibration. To prevent further airframe stress failures during the last 17 months of the Cargomaster’s service, ground crews attached 16 “belly bands,” four-inch metal straps, around the exterior of the fuselage.
“The fact that we tried to compromise the airplane by reducing the skin gauges and the gauges of the longerons—we had an airplane that was too flexible,” Isaacs says today. “I feel the company would be rather cautious in admitting it then, but now, in retrospect, it’s hard to come up with anything different. Unfortunately, the airplane’s reputation suffered, but all in all, the airplane met the 10,000-hour service life requirement. They did a tremendous job for the Air Force.”
Was the Cargomaster dangerous? Ten had crashed, and 61 men had been killed. In 1964, the C-133’s accident rate per 100,000 flying hours stood at 2.7, while the C-130’s was 1.9. The overall Air Force rate was 7.7. The C-133 had supported operations around the globe, and was even trusted with transporting Apollo command modules after they returned from the moon.
The debut of Lockheed’s C-5A Galaxy brought an unceremonious end to the C-133’s service. “On the first of January, 1971, we all walked across the street and into an empty building and we became the 9th Airlift Squadron,” says pilot Larry Phillips. “All the guys who walked across the street that day were -133 people.”
At Dover and Travis, both steeped in the heritage of airlift triumphs like the Berlin Airlift and the re-supply of Khe Sahn, the Cargomaster is a hero. “In general, the [C-133’s] biggest contribution is its development of the pattern of the modern cargo airplane, with a high wing and rear ramp,” says James Stemm, a curator at the Pima Air & Space Museum in Arizona. “The Cargomaster was the first application to a long-range heavy-lift aircraft. It leads pretty directly to the Lockheed C-5 Galaxy and the Boeing C-17 Globemaster III.”
The last time a C-133 flew was in 2008, when Ken Kozlowski’s Cargomaster, N199AB, traveled from Alaska to California to become part of the Travis Air Museum’s collection. “We always knew we were operating an airplane with a bad reputation,” says Kozlowski. “But it always got us home. That airplane never hurt anybody.”
At Dover, Baker and his crew have pointed out unique features on the cockpit control panels and flight engineer’s station, the cargo compartment’s miles of wiring harnesses, air and hydraulic lines, and cables that pass through the fuselage ribs; the high wing; the squat landing gear…. The rain is still coming in waves. Baker and Sandstrom grimace against the cold and button up the C-133. Sandstrom stows the forward crew ladder and closes the access panel. Both men give the Cargomaster a backward glance, then head inside.
John Sotham is a former associate editor at Air & Space/Smithsonian. Further reading: Remembering an Unsung Giant: The Douglas C-133 Cargomaster and Its People, Cal Taylor, Firstfleet Publishers, 2007.
Comments (69)
As a retired USAF C-133A Pilot from Dover AFB, DE., I must admit that if I had known of the C-133A's reputation before joining the 39th Sq. at Dover, I might have been inclined to resign my commission. However, I didn't and actually am quite proud of the four years I had flying in the C-133A. My first few trips in the C-133A were to Europe but as the Vietnam war escalated, most of my trips involved airlifting outsize cargo to various bases in So. Vietnam. While I had my share of "hours of sheer boredom, punctuated by moments of stark terror", I never had any qualms about the next mission. I probably accumulated around 4,000 hours and with few exceptions, enjoyed every hour in one of the greatest cargo airplanes to grace our skies.
Posted by Carl McDonald on August 20,2010 | 10:41 PM
I was the first pilot to go directly from pilot training to the C-133. (along with three others. I was also the first to progress from second pilot to first pilot to aircraft cmdr to instructor pilot to pilot flight examiner. I remember one flight very well, and have about five lbs. of nose case as a paper weight to remind me. We were about an hour out of Midway. I was a flt exminer letting the co-pilot have the leg. I was in the right seat pushed back talking to the flt engineer when I heard a loud bang! I turned and scanned the engines and saw that #3 was winding down . I feathered the engine. I then had the second engineer scan #3. He said it was feathered, but was moving like it was going to depart the aircraft. I diverted to Hawaii and made the softest landong I could. The prop stayed on the aircraft. But I took the bit of nose case out of the fuselage. The engine was a mess. I believe to this day that the fact that I had so many hours in the 133 saved my life and those of the crew. The flt engineer said I feathered the engine in a flash. I know that the copilot was still trying to figure what happened when the prop was feathered. At the time I had close to 5000 hours in the 133.
Posted by Brad Eliot on August 22,2010 | 08:10 PM
Thanks for the article. I always wondered what happened to the C-133 that was at the SAC museum and Offutt and didn't make it out to the new Stratcom Museum.
Posted by Bruce Crosby on August 23,2010 | 04:12 PM
My grandfather flew the C-133 from Travis, and had an incident at either Wake or Midway, losing one prop and I think another engine too. Got it back on the ground, after dumping fuel. He got a MAC safety award for it.
Posted by Ron on August 23,2010 | 05:37 PM
I accrued 1,837 hours as a C-133 navigator, with the 84th MAS. Never was even concerned, but that was years after the early time, when nose cases blew up and all that. When the squadron closed, I photographed all 142 pages of the scrapbook, saying "this will be great material for a book, someday." Well, thirty years later, someday happened. Nick Modders told me to get off the dime and write the book. So, six years later, Remembering an Unsung Giant: The Dougals C-133 Cargomaster and Its People" came off the presses. About 1,500 copies have gone out into the world, with that many remaining. In the process, I made dozens of new friends, C-133 people going back to the Douglas project engineer. Check the web site for lots more info and publisher's info:
http://www.angelfire.com/wa2/c133bcargomaster/home.html.
John Sotham id an excellent article. The only quibble was a photo caption saying that the high wing/low cargo deck configuration was due to the C-130. More a case of parallel development. Consider also the C-123, the C-82 and the C-119, among others. Earlier, the MEe323 Gigant sported that design form.
Posted by Cal Taylor on August 24,2010 | 08:14 PM
I was a Navigator in the 39th ATS at DAFB from 1962-1965 amassing about 2000 hrs even with the groundings. We were a small and intimate group so every loss included close friends. In spite of the problems we all liked the plane and duty as it was old time 'flying the line' around the world. The article is true in its spirit about the men and the machine. As far as I know, there were three two-engine landings and I was on two of them. We all have stories that would take a lifetime to tell. The spirit of the men and the machine was once again united in our recent 55th year reunion at DAFB with about 240 crew members and spouses. Go to our site that has lots of additional C-133 information that you might enjoy. Kudos and thanks to the author John Sotham.
http://cargomasterraster.blogspot.com/
Posted by Richard Spencer on August 24,2010 | 09:47 PM
As a Young teenager I remeber the wonderful sound of the C-133 as it landed and took off from Dunsfold Airfield, Surrey, England in the early 1970's. They were coming in to collect the US Marine Corps AV8A Harriers. The 133 were replaced with C-141s until the decision was made to build the Harriers in the USA.
If anyone knows of any of the crew members who flew into Dunsfold I would be interested as I met quite a few of them. And also would like to know if any of the 133's that are left did these flights.
The C-133 has remained a favorite.
Nik
Posted by Nik Read on August 25,2010 | 04:52 PM
I want to echo Cal's and Rick's love of this old bird that has never been widely known. Thanks for a great article and some well deserved visibility! I was a navigator in the 1st ATS, based out of Dover AFB, from 1962-65. MEMORABLE YEARS, and our recent Reunion was a BLAST! Amazing stories, and classic military camaraderie! Unfortunately missing from many of our younger generations. Please check out our blog at http://cargomasterraster.blogspot.com/
Posted by Dick Hanson on August 26,2010 | 07:10 AM
In the early 1960s my Dad was commander of the 1st Air Transport Squadron, Dover Air Force Base Delaware. A sad childhood memory was of my Dad and the Chaplain, wearing their dress blues, heading out to make notifications of those lost in a C-133 crash. As kids we intuitively knew something was very wrong but it taken me 35+ years of my own Air Force service to put it all in context. God Bless those who as C-133 crewmembers so well served their country.
Posted by Duane Jones on August 26,2010 | 08:21 AM
I joined the 1st MAS in December 1960 as a 2nd Lieutenant fresh out of pilot training to fly the C-133. As I accumulated over 5000 hours in the airplane there were many incidents and accidents occurring in the operation of the airplane. I never had a nose case failure or a major incident, however, I can't recall the number of engines we shutdown. In the early days before the blade angle change mechanism was slowed down the failure rate was much higher. I did experience one stall warning in a take off at Dover just as we lifted off the stall shaker was activated. During the flight to Goose we determined that the loadmaster had made an error calculating our cargo weight and we had taken off 15,000 pounds over max gross weight, not the airplane's fault. We were all concerned about the crashes and what was causing them but continued to fly the "Kamikaze" Cargo Carrier anyway. I will never forget the good times we had flying the C-133 nor the sad times when we lost crew members.
Posted by Bill Arnold on August 26,2010 | 09:55 AM
Following is a tid bit of my experiences as the maintenance crew chief on C-133A (62006) during approx 1966 to 1968. As a flying crew chief I had many interesting trips world wide for over two years(Viet Nam with all the stops inroute, Alaska, Azores, England, Spain, Turkey, etc). I never believed you could get two Grayhound buses on a C-133; but, they did. The flying crew chief program was setup (after #6 aircraft crash) to insure proper maintenance was done at transient stops during missions. Once we landed at Guam with a C-130 inflight escort due to #3 feathered (loss of engine power due to no burner can pressure: cracked sensing line). In Hickam AFB, we aborted takeoff due to a prop case oil overtemp. On further inspection, the engine oil filter looked like a pretty Christmas tree decoration with all the bronze metal from the prop nose case. The transient crew was just going to change the engine; but, I had to convince them that correct maintenance also required thorough flushing of the engine oil tank of any metal accummulated there (and lots of metal was there!). Once we did a short field landing at a very remote Viet Nam airfield. The few buildings there were all heavily sand bagged. Machine gun posts were setup every few hundred yards along runway and crashed aircraft were just pushed off the shoulders of the runway. I didn't like this situation and was anxious to leave. The landing was very hard and I found one of the landing gear door hinge pins had rattled out over one-half it's length. I visualized the door departing the aircraft on takeoff. Vise grips & a hammmer got it back where it belonged for an uneventful next flight. But, despite the C-133's problems, it always felt good to get back on the C-133 when you just saw exhausted foot soldiers coming off a patrol with mud/grim head-to-toe slumped against a BX building sucking down a simple thing like a coke or pepsi.
Posted by Larry DeBold on August 26,2010 | 10:24 AM
I spent a little over a year as a loadmaster on the C-133. Really loved the experience. I then flew on C-124's. It was a great airplane but still loved my flying on the C-133 more. I liked it so well the when the 22nd MAS disbanded, I was given the opertunity on picking my next assignment. I requested to return to the 39th, only was there a couple of months before getting out of the service. But I really enjoyed my time on the C-133, attended the last reunion, it was great seeing the giant again.
Posted by Ralph Neumeister on August 26,2010 | 11:33 AM
I was a navigator with the 1st ATS at Dover AFB from 1962-1964 acquiring appx 2,000 hours in that period. As a young 2nd louie, I was excited to be flying all over the world in such a huge aircraft. It was a comfortable airplane for crew members and the worst experience I witnessed was losing an engine once which was no big deal. I left Dover to fly HU-16Bs with Air Rescue in Viet Nam and I will say this, the C-133 was a much more comfortable aircraft. It was quieter, pressurized and had crew bunks. Even though the HU-16 was designed to land on the water, the C-133, which was not, did make one successful water landing. It was great to attend the 2010 reunion and climb on board the old girl and revive those great old memories.
Posted by Jack Slocombe on August 26,2010 | 11:56 AM
This article brings back so much. I was assigned Dover AFB ground crew on C-133A 56-2012(Jan. 1965 to Feb. 1967). I went on a Stall Strip test flight. The temporary attach for the stall strip was duct tape. Cannot forget the test pilot and his orange flight suit. We expected him to open the cockpit side window, hang his arm out and take off one handed.Of course he did not. Making the aircraft stall ( I think it was called a power on stall)was an experience. The whole windshield just filled up with Deleware Bay until we came out of the stall. I know all the planes turned the same except 56-2013 which turned opposite from all the others? Those were the days. In '67 when I was sent to Vietnam working C-130A's at Cam Ranh Bay. Former Dover flight chief Msgt. Ball was there and we would visit the upper ramp whenever a 133 came in. Just had to see who was with it. The Cargomaster still has a strong place with me. Always will !!
Posted by Tom Talbert on August 26,2010 | 01:28 PM
As a flight engineer I flew part of the test program on the C-133A's at Edwards and flew the B models in the 84th at Travis AFB from 1964 to 1966. Some of the best people I ever knew were in the 84th ATS.
Posted by Curtis R. Camp;bell on August 26,2010 | 03:03 PM
I was a C-133 pilot who flew out of Travis AFB and Dover AFB. As a 2nd Lt I requested and was assigned to the bird out of pilot training and was never sorry. I never felt uneasy in the airplane despite the stories and rumors that abounded. The airplane did a job that no other aircraft, civilian or military, could do with outsize and oversize cargo. It flew to places in the world that the Air Force did not regularly visit with military and civilian cargo and did the job with crews that knew the aircraft and it's limitations better than other aviators knew their planes. With well over 5000 hours in the airplane and having served as copilot, pilot, instructor and flight examiner, I thoroughly enjoyed the airplane, mission and most of all, crews we flew with. Thank you for an outstanding retrospective on the old girl. The "Weenie Wagon" will always have a top place in my heart.
Posted by John Urban on August 26,2010 | 04:34 PM
I followed in Brad Eliot's footsteps, getting my wings in the T-33 and then straight to Dover and the 39th, in 1961. My first ride in a 133 was on a local with John Watson. When my turn came he put me in the left seat and said "Fly." He handled the throttles and I still felt like I was flying the Empire Sate Building. The airplane seemed too big to be real. Tommy Brooks taught Jim Donlan and I to fly the thing and the following four years were a highlight of my life. In '65 the airlines were hiring and the rest is history, but being a veteran of the C-133 is an honor few can share. The reunions are a great pleasure; if you were associated with the C-133 and haven't attended one keep an eye on the website (http://cargomasterraster.blogspot.com/) and plan on joining us in a couple of years.
Oh, the article? Mostly pretty accurate, and welcome "advertising" for an airplane that all too few remember.
Thanks to Air & Space Smithsonian for publishing it.
Posted by Terry Wall on August 26,2010 | 05:50 PM
Very interesting article. I still dont understand why there would be asymmetrical stall characteristics for the left and right C 133 wings. Any opinions?
I am a longtime C 133 fan and followed the exploits of the last of the breed that flew as a suplus civilian freight hauler in AK.
I was at Travis when she arrived for retirement and put together a website about the event. Please take a look and give me your feedback:
http://sites.google.com/site/boeing377/c133
Posted by Mark M on August 26,2010 | 06:30 PM
Larry DeBold, how can we make contact? Left Dover Jan 68 for CCK flew over in a stretch 8 with Al Forbes our old crew chief. Like everyone from Dover we all wished we were back at Dover on the 133 for some reason we missed the 133 and taking oil samples and putting in a few quarts of oil on a windy winter night.
Posted by Ray Hayes on August 26,2010 | 11:09 PM
I was a navigator in the 39th ATS in 1958-59 and really enjoyed the experience. The pilots, navigators, flight engineers and loadmasters were some of the best I was ever associated with during 29 years in the Air Force. After completing pilot training I tried to get back into the C-133 but never made it.
Posted by Ken Durham on August 27,2010 | 09:05 PM
Having just read Terry Wall`s comments, I thought I should join in. Fresh out of T-33`s in pilot training, I came to the 39th at Dover in the Fall of 62. I had several great flights with Terry and also had John Watson as an instructor. Many other memories of guys like Gordy Pink, Brad Elliot, Marrion Wagner, Fred Galey, Ray Booth, Jay Norton and lots of others. I left for the airlines in `66 also, and finished out my 20 years for retirement with the California Air Guard at Van Nuys, CA flying C-97s and C-130s. My years of flying the 133 are a source of many good memories. Sadly we lost too many good people. Thanks to Dick Hanson for all his work, and I really will try to make the next reunion. Best regards to all my old friends I flew with on the 133.
Posted by Dave Newell on August 28,2010 | 03:15 PM
I came to Dover in January 1958 as a 1st Lt assigned to the 1st ATS in C-124's. Now as a former fighter piliot I wasn't a very happy camper. I wasn't there 6 months before I was putting in applications to go back to fighters. Well in late Sep 1959 after about a dozen such applications the squadron CO, Major Bernie Thompson, called me into his office and said do you still want to fly JP-4 fuel burners. Of course I said yes and he said great. I asked where am I going. He said up stairs to the 39th. I won't say what i was thinking but i knew i had been had. I went to the 39 the first of Oct. 1959 as a 1Lt. second pilot and left there in Jan 1959 as a pilot flight examiner with almost 7000 hours fligh time in the big bird. It was one of the greatest experiences of my life and that includes a tour in the 89th at Andrews and 12 years of airline flying. I flew with aome of the greatest people on earth and still cherish every miniute of it along with with many grey hair experiences. I think I have made every reunion and am sure looking forward to the next one. A bunch of great guys.
Posted by Bob carpenter on August 28,2010 | 03:44 PM
Just fresh out of tech school at Shepard AFB in the fall of 1963 and assigned to Dover AFB and placed on the ground crew of 54-0142 was quit the experience; I had never seen an aircraft that large before that carried cargo and I knew it was something special and now it has quite the following.I collect everything available about the Cargomaster. My stay at Dover was only 2 yrs. but exciting I flew everytime the opportunity presented itself most were locals or test flights for new pilots or takeoff and landings with no fear; one memorable occasion however sad I was selected to go to Wright-Patterson after all C-133's were under red X because of one of the accidents in 1965 We did inspection upon inspection. I spent 65 days doing this; and during that period the wreakage was brought to us and we opened crates and placed the contents in the hanger on a diagram of a 133 drawn on the floor to be inspected by the appropriate people I consider it an honor to say I was part of the life of a true UNSUNG GIANT.
Posted by Robert Houston on August 28,2010 | 04:14 PM
I was flying on c-124s at travis and transfered to Dover in 1960.Clyde Branscrans was the Loadmaster in charge.And Sandy Sandsteom was a flight engineer.I flew till the last of 1964.Transfered to Sheppard AFB,TX.We left Sheppard in 1967 for Hickam AFB,Hawaii back on c-124s for two more years ,Then back to Sheppard AFB,TX,To teach again in the course.Wheh i retired in 1973 I had over10,000 hours as a loadmaster FE.I loved the c-133b and the c-124,s.It was a nice aircraft an an easy one to load. thanks for taking you time.Jim Atwood 82 years old now.
Posted by James R.Atwood,Retired in 1973 on August 28,2010 | 05:43 PM
I was assigned as a Flight Engineer to the 1st ATS in 1962 and flew the C-133A until early 1966. I have a lot of memories of inflight happenings. Now, I am having memory loss at the age of 80 but remember leaving Dover and leveling off at altitude. A short time later we were watching #1 prop and it seemed like it was moving back and forth on the shaft. Just a few seconds later off came the prop and flew over the wing and landed somewhere?. the last major accident for me was, our crew landed at Wake Island and were bumped by another crew. their airplane was broke. We went into crew rest and some time after midnight we were awakened by the staff, they wanted us to come with them and help locate and identify the parts that would surface, that our C-133 had crashed after takeoff in the ocean. I flew about 4000 hours in the four years in the program. I went to Tinker to the C-141 program and then on to the C-5 program at Altus. Loved the 26 years in the Air Force. Would do it all over again.
Posted by Donald L Taylor on August 28,2010 | 06:29 PM
Great to see comments from some old friends an crew mates! I arrived at the 39th in May of 1961 as a 2/Lt from nav training; left as a major, standardization nav when we closed the program in May, 1971 as a combined 1st/39th unit. (Anyone know where Jim Hogan, my counterpart in the 1st is? We gave each other our last checkrides that May.) Carl McDonald ... wondered what happened to you. I remember well that trip to bring the first Cobras from the factory to VN, with an infamous stop at the Magellen Hotel! Terry Wall and I spent New Years together at Mildenhall, one of several missions we shared. Brad Eliot, I've been to every C-133 reunion ... haven't seen you yet! (Haven't forgiven Bob Lane and I for leaving 62000 with you at Kadena?) Great "Air & Space" article!
Posted by Dick Quimby on August 28,2010 | 10:48 PM
I was a propeller technician stationed at Hickam AFB, Hi from 1957-1960. I was placed on enroute maintenance
for 120 days to travel throughout the Pacific region to
perform engines and propeller changes. We traveled in
C-124 with all the tools necessary to accomplish this
task. Including one spare engine and one spare propeller.
It was a very interesting expierence. We used to joke about
a C-133 would leave Travis AFB, CA, with 2 C-124's departing
shortly after carrying spare parts for it..
Posted by CMSgt (ret) Donalod D. Stockhoff on August 29,2010 | 12:14 PM
Correction: Captain (later Major) R.O. "Dick" Brooks was the C-133 IP. Tommy Brooks was a captain I flew with in a different life. Apologies to all, thanks to Dick Quimby.
Posted by Terry Wall on August 29,2010 | 02:22 PM
I arrived at Dover right out Sheppard in Nov.65 was assigned to the ground crew of 62006 under the watchful eye of my OJT trainer Larry DeBold, hi Larry how ya been? Taking engine oil samples and servicing oil on that high wing on a windy winter night was an experience in it self as was the 133 in general. I have a friend from my time at Dover who was on 133s twice 130s 141s KC135s what else I don't know and he says if you could crew a 133 you could crew anything. I left Dover in Jan 68 for 130s at CCK and even though the powers that be put turbo prop aircraft in the same shred 431X1F there was nothing in common with the 130 and 133 except they had turbo prop engines. I was to find out later when I went I retrained into 141 flight engineer that the 141 and 130 had much in common.
Ray Hayes
Posted by Ray Hayes on August 30,2010 | 08:59 PM
I was assigned to C 133’s at Dover air force base straight out of loadmaster school at Sheppard Air Force base in Texas, where I was second in my class. In these big birds, weight and balance was very critical; not only for takeoff, but for landing as well. So you had to know its limitations. My first ride in the C 133 was a test flight that I will never forget, especially the landing. When the propellers were reversed, the whole cockpit shook. Sometimes you wondered how it held together. For me, I flew with the best crew that knew the airplane and that may be why I’m alive today to talk about it. Like others, I knew some guys that had lost their lives and most of the time the plane is not at fault.
It was very exciting flying halfway around the world. The C 133 had good bunks and a bathroom. My first trip out of the country was to Prestwick, Scotland, and of course the bird broke down and it “broke our hearts” that we had to wait a few days on the part. Isn’t that interesting that they would never break down in a place like Tully, Greenland? The bird could hold 100,000 pounds of fuel in those wings, which made for some long flights on occasion; such as from Prestwick, Scotland to Dover, Delaware (14 hours). The Co-Pilot was always nice enough to let you use his seat while he was taking a break. I learned a lot about all the bells and whistles from the rest of the crew members; enough that I am still flying today. I really enjoyed my time in Delaware and would like to return, now that I know they have an organization, and become a member of the C 133 group.
Posted by Phil Key on August 31,2010 | 02:43 PM
Mr. Sotham, thank you for such a thoughtfully written article about the 133; one of our Mobility pillars. It was both intriguing and humbling to learn so much about a predecessor to our modern airlift fleet. I flew C-5s for 5 years out of Travis and I'm sorry to admit how little I knew of the sacrifices made by those aircrews that went before us.
You have captured well the fact that airframes have their own unique character traits. As an example; unbeknownst to many (read; our Army brethren), C-5s will fly for 20 straight uneventful hours around the globe, quick-turn and fly another 20 hour return trip ad nauseum--well...often. Park that same plane for two days and it could take 2 months to get it off the ground again. Unfortunately, the Cargomaster didn't have so much this C-5 "lazy" characteristic as it did a wicked, unpredictable aerodynamic characteristic.
I really enjoyed how you brought to life the Cargomaster's "dark personality" in its unwillingness to reveal to the engineers a fleet-wide fix by demanding one airframe's stall strip be placed between nos. 3 and 4..."As if to demonstrate that the Cargomaster would never reveal all its secrets."
Finally, I was clearly not the only one to be intrigued and thrilled by your excellent writing. These previous comments by 133 crew members and their families (even after all this time) are tributes to your ability to bring back to life this airlift work-horse. Thank you.
Lt Col John LoGrande, USAF
Posted by John LoGrande on August 31,2010 | 02:19 AM
Mr. Sotham, thanks for a great article! I won't bore anyone with my history in the Air Force. Suffice it to say that my time with the C-133 was my finest hour in the USAF. I loved the bird, but mostly I loved the people with whom I flew. I volunteered to go to the C-133 in the 1st Squadron at Dover. I was assigned to the 31st Squadron at Dover in C-124s. I found out that the 1st Squadron was looking for a "few good Navigators" to come to the Unit. The Chief Nav, Alex whitmer, interviewed me and accepted me almost immediately (he probably thought I was crazy). I flew my first mission the next day. It was absolutely wonderful getting out of a C-124 and flying in the "luxurious" C-133. Pressurized and above weather was like winning the lottery. Many missions and thousands of hours later, it was off to Vietnam and then back to Dover in C-5s. I love going to our C-133 reunions and seeing all my good friends once again. It was such an honor being in the 1st with such "super" men. We got the mission done and kept the bird flying 'till the bitter end. I salute all the guys that didn't make it and especially their families. I shall always think of the C-133 as a special airplane that paid its way in the Air Force. It was a high water mark in my life! Vince Gullo "Captain Lightning" 1st MAS
Posted by Vincent Gullo, Lt Col, Retired, USAF on September 1,2010 | 12:13 PM
After reading the comments from all of the guys, I get a little choked. I spent most of my AF career in the 1st sq. starting with the C-124s and then the C-133s. I accunulated 7500 hours before becoming a plank owner in the 9th MAS. I can tell many stories, some of them pretty hairy, but all of you know about what we went through. I am with all of our group in saying it was the highlight of my life to be involved in the 133. I was also with a large group of our guy's in Viet Nam and they sent us all back to our old squadrons. Good thinking on MAC's part.
Sandy Sandstrom
Posted by Sandy Sandstrom on September 6,2010 | 09:26 PM
I flew the C-133 from 1964 to 1970 for a total of 4,700 hours. I was assigned to the 39th MAS at dover as a 2nd pilot, aircraft commander, PFE and standardization pilot. I went from a jet fighter unit in Japan to standardization offier in two years. After our 1965 grounding Col Dyer when administering my 2nd pilot proficiency check promoted me directly to aircraft commander, which Major Myers was against.
I wrote an eight page letter to John Sotham regarding his well-written article on the C-133. I commented on some things that he missed. the letter is naturally too large to include in the comment section ,but if anyone would like a copy send me an e-mail (pilotlou@aol.com subject C-133 letter) and I'll send you a copy by return e-mail.
Lou Martin
Posted by Lou Martin on September 11,2010 | 03:26 PM
I flew the C-133 on 2 different tours from 1961 until 1965 and later 1969 and 1970. I was a brand new 2/lt nav and on my second trip across the Alantic we shut an engine down. Their so many shutdown after that I lost count. You just expected that it was going to happen again. The professionalism of the pilots and crews during these emergencies were handled to profection. One of the 39th pilots on my first tour was Major Jimmie Johnson. I was on a trip to the Pacific early in 1962 and he showed me the bullet holes in the building that occurred during the Pearl Harbor attack when he was an airman. Later when thru aviation cadets and flew numerous mission over Germany as a B-17 pilot. I had the privilage to start my early career with a truly outstanding pilot like he was. I wondered if any in our group had been in contact with him. It was a privilege to flying the C-133 and be part of the group that flew the Weenie-wagon. Dave Fiegel
Posted by david fiegel on September 14,2010 | 12:36 AM
My dad flew 124s with both the 1607 and 1602 Airlift Wings w/ MATS. He refused to fly the C-133 from the very first time he saw one. His caution was later justified when, while stationed in France from 1960 - 63, one of his best friends was killed in a 133 crash.
Posted by Doug Rivers on September 15,2010 | 02:32 AM
Great article, and fascinating comments from the men who knew this truly impressive aircraft well. Always wondered why more of them didn't end up flying for civilian cargo airlines after the Air Force retired them- I guess the airframe fatigue life ruled it out.
Never seen one in the flesh, but that high aspect ratio wing gives it a look all its own.
Thanks to everyone involved for all the info on an aircraft I've always wanted to know more about- I'll have to look into getting a copy of that book!
Posted by Chris Petruch on October 27,2010 | 10:47 AM
Like many of the previous writers, I was a navigator aboard the C-133 from 1958 to 1960. In fact, I arrived from Navigation School in Houston in April, 1958, the day after the C-133 crashed. Naturally the C-133's were grounded for a few months and I was assigned to flying in the C-124's. After the grounding was lifted, I then flew in the 39th Squadron and like many others, have fond memories of the C-133. I was a very proud Naviagtor and accumulated more than 1500 hours in the C-133 in those 2 years. Many thanks to everyone who was involved in writing this fine article about a fine aircraft.
Posted by Bill Ranney on November 1,2010 | 03:09 PM
I came to the C-133 after being on C-130B's at Mactan P.I..In Jan.67 I joined the 601 OMS at Travis and was made Crew Chief of 59-525. The first time I climbed on board and saw the wood Floor in the cargo compartment,Ithought what are we going to carry on this thing! The answer was simple anything You can get in the doors.She was designed to haul missles,but we used to fly the sink with the kitchen still attached. Spent 18 months with the 603rd at Kadena and came to Dover in october69.I crewed56-2001 until I went back to the 463rdTCW at Clark in Nov.70. The C-133 was a special airplane flowen by the best Crews and maintained by the best wrench benders in the Air Force. I loved my time on that airplane.
Posted by Donald J Wohlever on November 5,2010 | 01:25 PM
My rag/wrenchin' began at Travis March '64 on 130's in the 1513th OMS. December '66 ushered in 141's and a new squadron, the 602nd OMS. September '68 I was at Ubon RTAFB as crew chief on 54-1629, a C-130 gunship. A year later the real fun was to begin.
October '69 found me at Dover along with Don Wohlever. Together we attended 133 FTD class. After completion of schooling, we were assigned as crew chiefs on a couple of the long silver tubes with wheels. He drew 2001 and I picked up 1999 which became affectionatly known as "Cripple Nine". After being used to the relatively small sizes of the 130 and 141, I was impressed by the interior size of the 133.
Wohlever and I became part of what was known as "Chambers n' Lamb's Dream Team". "jumpin' Jack" Chambers was obsessed with on time blocks of his aircraft. The Dream Team made it possible on many occasions when last minute malfunctions cropped up. I loved being part of that launch crew.
Posted by James E. Rau on November 16,2010 | 09:20 AM
I was assigned to the 1st MAS in Dover directly out of Loadmaster school. I remember a number of flights that were out of the ordinary. On one mission, we left Dover the 1st of Feb and returned in March--the reason? We kept breaking down. On another mission, we had left Wake Island for Clark AB and had just passed the half way point when we blew a nose casing on one of the starboard engines. Clark scrambled air rescue for us, "just in case". The flight engineer, I think was John Esposito, calculated that, if we lost another engine, we would be flying 50 feet below sea level. We sat at Clark for quite a while and had to have an engine flown in for us. While maint. was hoisting it up, they dropped it. So another long stay while we waited. We ended up "bumping" another C133 crew and took their aircraft while they waited on ours.
Posted by Ted Strong on November 17,2010 | 08:04 AM
I saw the name Hank Baker while reading the story on the Cargomaster in Air & Space Mag. and was wondering if it is the same person I was stationed with from 1955 till 1958 in the 19th bomb wing 93rd BS at Pinecastle AFB and Homestead AFB Fl. working together on B-47 tail #208. If you are the same Hank Baker please feel free to contact me, my grandson Airman Jesse Vaillancourt will be stationed at Dover AFB in Feb. working in structual aircraft maintenance. Leo V. lejuva [at] verizon [dot] net.
Posted by Leo Vaillancourt on November 26,2010 | 05:45 PM
loadmaster C133 Dover 58 to 66.
Posted by Roy Perkins on December 18,2010 | 07:56 AM
I enjoy reading article / comments about the "The Flying Graveyard". C-133's - that's the name I remember from my days (1963 - 1966)as a Loadmaster with the 1st ATS / MAS out of Dover.
I need to apologize, some 45 or so years after the fact to a (then) 1st LT that was dead heading with us from somewhere in SEA back to the East coast. We made a quick night time landing to drop him off at McGuire AFB (I think) and then continue home to DAFB.
My orders, after coming to the full stop, were to take the LT's bag to the rear cargo ramp, open the ramp about 1/2 way so I could place the bag on the taxiway - the engines were still running so the LT was to exit off the rear ramp and I was ordered to report when he left the aircraft.
Well... it was a really long 13 hour flight, and it was pitch black outside when we landed and my ears were plugged. I went to the rear ramp, plugged the headset in and heard the AC tell me to open the door and drop the bag when we came to a full stop. I did so, we stopped and I dropped the bag. About that time I experienced three surprises within a second of one another. In no particular order I recall the bag hitting the ground and tumbling into the darkness and hearing the breaking of glass bottles. These were following in the blink of an eye by a blue taxiway light speed by in the opposite direction at about 20 mph.
It took me a few seconds to realize that we were still moving and in about 15 seconds we came to a stop, I saw a jeep, the LT ran by and jumped off saying "Thanks for the ride". I reported his departure, immediately the AC started his roll back to the active runway. I closed the door, we took off and I never heard a thing about the incident but do remember fearing a pending court martial for months afterwards.
LT ????? I apologize!
Posted by John Sacchetti on January 14,2011 | 12:28 PM
I was assigned to Dover out of tech school, as ground crew on 54-0143, Larry Oshum first crew chief then Ray Toby.
1966 through 1968. Flying crew chief, flew many missions to SEA. We would always break at Hickem for a part we needed from Dover. Remembering jumping chocks at Dover running engines for maintance. Even after I got out living in Pittsburgh, you could still hear the distint sound of those turbo-prop engines flying over head from Dover to Travis.
Loved the C-133A.
Posted by George Dolan on March 13,2011 | 10:16 AM
My father, Lt. Col Alexis Witmer (USAF ret.) flew C-133's in Dover, Delaware during the 60's. He was the chief navigator for the 1st Squadron. Col. Gerald Edwards,(USAF ret.) was the squadron commander during that time. My dad did all of the check rides for new navigators. He really put them through their paces. I am so proud of my Dad!
Posted by Lee Witmer on May 7,2011 | 05:18 PM
I was stationed at Mcguire 62-63, and worked air freight.in 1962 I went tdy to Columbus ms during the integration of southern schools by federal troops. We took off from columbus on a C 133 and headed to Memphis,during the trip the engines started ocilating, and we received orders to put on parachutes,thank god for a ww2 airman that showed me how to properly wear one of those things..Upon a rough landing we had overheated brakes on the left side that started smoking, firetrucks chased us down the runway and everyone evacuated safely.
1963-65 worked airfreight 1616supt sqdrn, chatearoux France. We had a number of c 133 transciet our station, however we had one situation where a c 133 limped in,and spent a few weeks there being torn apart under the supervision of folks from wright patt. This bird was supposedly fixed after numerous problems were discovered, and took of for mildenhal England,where it landed once again under emergency procedures,,Probelms at chatearoux supposedly were propeller hubs, and some sort of antenae arching, per my room mate who worked in maintenence.
One trip was enough for me on that c 133, I remember the cockpit as a beautiful thing vs the cockpit of a c 124..Loading this thing sometimes was a challenge, but we always managed..40k loaders made the work a little easier.
Posted by William kurasz Sr on May 24,2011 | 11:19 AM
Fantastic reading these posts. Just curious: have any of you C133 heros suffered hearing loss from the thunderous roars of the engines? Has the VA recognized your service-connected loss? Many thanks and hats off to you all.
Posted by Jan Sellinger on June 27,2011 | 03:41 PM
I am looking for Bill Villines. He was flying C-133's at Traviis in the 84th when I was recalled there in 1962.He had been my navigator in B-47's at LincolnAFB, Neb, 1957-1959.After I left active duty he went to pilot training and became an A/C on C-133's. He tried to convince me to join the 84th. I was supposed to fly for time on a local C-133 flight at Travis. At the last minute I was bumped from the flight. That flight crashed short of the runway on landing at Travis,no survivors. Anyway I'm looking for Bill, I don't even know if he got out of "Nam"alive or not. I would appreciate any help in finding him or knowing what happened to him?I'm hoping maybe some of you folks from the 84th might be able to help me?
Thank you, Graham
Posted by Graham Newell on September 4,2011 | 03:56 PM
I'm still hoping to hear from some of you 84th folks about Bill Villines. I flew C-124's in he 85th ATS at Travis and the 7th ATS at McChord and C-141's with the 4th MAS at McChord. Joe Ross a flight examiner in the 4th who gave me my initial line check in the C-141 and had previously flown C133's told me that he had the weight record for a single piece of cargo in any aircraft,in the C-133. He had hauled a prop shaft for an icebreaker to Antartica that weighed 90,ooolbs. I'm sure that record has gone away by now?!
In eight years of flying the Pacific I only landed west at Wake Island two times. The first was for weather and the second for a C-133. As we were on downwind for landing to the west I observed a C-133 that appeared to be ready for takeoff to the east. As he had taxied into position for takeoff a bogeybeam had collpsed and the aircraft settled to the runway on its belly. For several hours maintenance worked to jack it up on a dolly and move it while two D-9 Cats stood by to shove it in the ocean if someone declared and emergency that required the use of the entire runay. I never got the tail number or unit of that aircraft. Someone should know about that incident.
Posted by Graham Newell on September 23,2011 | 12:32 AM
I was a R-4360 engine mechanic on the C-124's while stationed at Hickam (1957-60), and would look over at the C-133's; took a close look and thought, WOW would I love to go up in one of them. Never got the chance! My dad was a flight engineer in the old 6th ferrying sq., at Long Beach in the early 1940's, went on to the CBI theater and finally the Berlin Airlift. He joined the old AAC in 1928 and retired in 1959. Needless to say I was a military brat.
Posted by Leonard Chapman on September 27,2011 | 01:54 PM
I had three buddies transfered from Hanscom Field to Dover as Flight Engineers. Their names were Alonza, Layne, and Thorndyke. Is there any Dover record of these guys?
Posted by MSgt. E.L.Davis (Ret) on October 3,2011 | 09:20 AM
I just stumbled on this article with all the crew member and support comments. What a memory jolt it is. I was there from 1958 through 1962, via the 15th, 39th and 1st ATS's. Last job was flying FCF's with Major "Pappy" Warr. Many stories, some funny, many potentially not so. I truly liked the machine on 4 or sometimes 3 Pratts, but it took out too many good people. I firmly believe that the angle of incidence created with a mis-mated wing fuselage marriage gave good pilots precious little time to recover from inadvertent stall conditions creted by an incorrectly calculated IAS from erroneous charts. Some agree, some don't. Bottom line, a great era in my flying life, mostly due to the mission oriented guys throughout the system.
Bob Ginn, Col, USAF (ret)
btw, how can I get a copy of the above article? And, read Cal Taylor's superb book.
Posted by Robert Ginn on October 15,2011 | 02:21 PM
Larry Oshum, I was assigned to your crew on 0143, I remember Ray Toby also. Flew many missions to SEA 1966 to 1968.
Geroge Dolan
Posted by Geroge Dolan on December 3,2011 | 06:29 PM
I was a loadmaster on the C-133 out of Dover, 1stMATS. Saw this space to post stories.... I was scheduled for a tip and was listed on the flight orders. When I reported to the plane, it was ready for takeoff. As I got ready to board, the Captain saw that I was limping severely. I had taken a bad fall that morning. The Captain called for the backup loadmaster and he sent me to he hospital. About two hours out, the plane and all crew members were lost.
Posted by Harry J. Cummings A2C on December 18,2011 | 05:19 PM
I went to Dover air force base from tech school at Shepperd AFB Tex. I was there from Oct. 67 to Apr. 68. I was on the maint crew assigned to acft. 56- 2009. I can remember many cold nights standing ground for engine runs as a 3 level Airman 3 rd. class. The worst weather I ever remember in my whole life bitter cold that year. We had a good crew though and always had our plane ready when she was needed. I remember a good crew member John Trovitch from N.J.He and I had some good times there.He was assigned to 56-2012 as I remember.The c-133 was a monster plane I was always amazed at the fact it got off the ground. I left there for a 33 month tour in Naha,Okinawa 18 months C-130A then on to C.C.K.Taiwan where I crewed C-130E models. Many TDY to Viet Nam was also a once in a life time experience.I found out that ole 2009 is now at rest at Octave Chanute Museum in Ill. I am planning on a visit there this coming summer to see her again.I can't wait to see that awesome plane again.I will never forget my days at Dover.
Posted by DAVE HERSHBERGER on March 5,2012 | 10:50 PM
My father, Capt Don Holmes, flew the C133 from Travis and died in a crash off of Japan in June of 1961. The VFW post in Satellite Beach Florida is named for him.
Larry Holmes
Posted by Larry Holmes on March 31,2012 | 01:04 PM
Am looking for anyone with memories of the C-133 crash 13 Apr 58 out of Dover AFB, Del. Please contact me at
ntrprz [at] dmv [dot] com.
Jeff Brown
Editor,Hangar Digest newsletter
AMC Museum, Dover AFB
Posted by Jeff Brown on April 26,2012 | 01:25 PM
Jeff, for what its worth: On that day, I was a 2p/nq waiting for a move to the 39th ATS from the 15th. I had arrived at Dover in January from Germany and, as a "hot" jet jock, pushing a C-124 around seemed like a come down. The powers that be decided I had entry requirements to this exotic new machine and I awaited the final word. On that Sunday, my wife, baby daughter and I drove from Capitol Park to Rodney Village for a barbeque with friends from our Germany tour. Sometime after we arrived, Paul, our host said: Oh, oh. Look at that. We could see smoke rising above the horizon. Paul clicked on the radio, and after some moments, reported that a giant C-133 had crashed near/in the Ellendale National Forest. No other details for a long time. My wife asked innocently if that was not the aircraft I had just been assigned to. My answer was probably stupid, but no one said much more that afternoon. Sunday it was, I believe.
I stayed with the program for some 2500 hours, not without some incidents, but really liked the airplane and loved most of the people surrounding it.
Posted by Bob Ginn on May 10,2012 | 02:33 PM
I flew with the 84th ATS out of Travis AFB in the early 60's, also the 50th and 48th out of Hickam AFB.
Would like to make contact with any of the pilots or navigators that may have flown into SEA(vietnam) during that period.
Thanks
Posted by willliam crozier on May 17,2012 | 12:33 PM
I find it very interesting that a museum curator would consider the C-133 the standard for high wing, high tail transports when Lockheed's C-130 was designed at least two years before and is the real standard for cargo aircraft. Someone said the 39th became the 9th at Dover. I was at Robins in the 58th which was the same wing and the 9th was at Dover with C-141s.
Posted by Sam McGowan on July 6,2012 | 07:25 PM
I was an Communications/Electronics guy on temporary duty to FCF (Flight Test) at Dover (39th) flying with the infamous Major "Pappy" Warr. I remember the parachutes we had to wear while checking out the Stall Warning System at different altitudes and his favorite word "Contact" upon engine start. They were good times. Some one tell me about reunion.
CMSgt(Ret) Larry Rose
Posted by Larry Rose on September 25,2012 | 02:59 PM
I was flying crew chief C133 Travis 65till67. On a rare flight to Australia we spent a very memorable night. The next day the ignition exciter would kick the circuit breaker in 6 seconds. I knew that it only took 2 seconds to start the engine.So I got on the headset and stood facing the breaker. I told the pilot to start the engine. When the engine reached starting RPMs the pilot threw the fuel and I hit the circuit breaker. The engine started and I was hated by the whole crew. For they wanted to stay another night.I was eventually forgiven.
Posted by James e Edwards on September 27,2012 | 01:27 PM
Now, I find it hard to believe that it’s been over 50 years since I signed into the 39th TRS at Dover AFB as a line-navigator. I'd been in the SAC pipeline, and had just finished Radar-Bombardier training at Mather AFB. I’d been looking forward to flying the B-52 as a radar-bombardier, but MATS developed a critical shortage of line navigators, so there I was at Dover AFB to fly the C-133A. My arrival was on 22 October 62 in the middle of the Cuban Missile Crisis! After signing in I wanted to look at a C-133, but they were all gone due to the crisis, hauling cargo for what could have turned into a nasty war against Cuba, or a nuclear war with the Soviet Union. The squadron Ops Officer told be that if I was needed as a C-133 navigator, he’d call me, point out an airplane, send me on my way, and expect to figure out how to use the equipment all on my own. But until then I was requested to stay out of the way, go home, buy canned food for survival if we were attacked, and fill all bathtubs with water for emergency drinking, when needed. I and my wife I were duly IMPRESSED! Fortunately, that crisis ended peacefully. It was my introduction to the C-133 at Dover! During the next three and a half years I finished college on a Bootstrap TDY and was accepted into pilot training. I had a lot of great experiences before departing Dover AFB in April 66 for Craig AFB, AL. I will never forget that C-133 tour. I retired after 23 years active-duty. Today, I still work in the military aviation sector of Defense Dept business, very involved with the Apache attack helicopter..
Posted by Chuck Munroe on March 14,2013 | 05:39 PM
I had several hundred hours on the c-133 as a flight engineer. The most memorable trip was going out of Kelly AFB, getting to about 13000 ft. When the nose case on no. 3 engine exploded and pieces from no. 3 engine knocked out no. 4 engine. we made a successful 2 engine landing back at Kelly. After checking the cargo compartment , we found approximately 200 holes, large and small, through the side of the fuselage. I still have a piece of that engine to remind me of that trip.
Posted by Ferd Winget on March 14,2013 | 11:14 PM
Wow, lots of history in these comments!!!
What a great article.
I was a Reserve C-5 LM and brought the nose portion of the referenced C-133B from Offutt to Dover, along with two other LM's from my squadron. We worked with Worldwide Aircraft Recovery Ltd. to get it to Dover. It was a pretty cool mission. Glad I got to be a part of it!
http://www.worldwideaircraft.com/viewproject.php#
Posted by thebronze on March 28,2013 | 07:38 PM
c133-0145 crew member/ crew chief. was at Dover may 64/apr68.
made many trips to SEA, and a few the other way, England, Germany. made my last trip june67. I remember Ray Toby and George Dolan and Tomas Dean. Think 0145 had about 10000 or 12000 Hours on it when i got out. We landed at Dover once with only two engines turning remember it well. Yes i have hearing loss and ringing in both ears. Had a lot of good times and met a lot of good people while in the air force.When is the next Reunion at Dover? THANKS, jOE.
Posted by joseph a swaim ( joe) on March 30,2013 | 08:45 PM
I was assigned to the 39th MAS and the C-133A at Dover AFB in June 1967. I had been reassigned from the 22nd MAS at Tachikawa AB, Japan as a Flight Engineer on C-124 A/C aircraft. When I arrived at Dover, the C-133A was grounded pending a determination as to why a C-133 had recently crashed. I was a bit nervous about flying on this big bird that had been in several mysterious crashes or disappearances. I eventually ended up flying with the 39th for three years and found the C-133A to be a real cargo hauler that was unmatched at that time. Late in 1970 I transferred to the 9th MAS and the C-5A. I retired in 1974 after 21 years service and 13,000+ hours of flying time on several different aircraft. The Air Force was a great place for me in my younger years, and my time at Dover was quite memorable because of the great guys I served with.
Posted by James D. Schlumbohm on April 29,2013 | 10:49 PM